4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

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Re: 4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

Postby JustSomeGuy » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:30 pm

thebs wrote:I never went plasma because of the sheer heat and power required. The colors are amazing, although they do lose fidelity over time. OLED is finally reaching large panel sizes, and price is now down to the cost of LED backlight LCD. 2017 will be interesting indeed.

I've heard that some phones with OLED display suffer CRT like screen burn-in, I wouldn't want to deal with that again. But then again, those OLED displays are really nice to look at... :)
Don't know if OLED screen can be "reset" after you notice a burn, like flashing different colors full screen for a few minutes.
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Re: 4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

Postby TorTorden » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:02 pm

I'm hanging around on some other av forums and those LG oleds suffer from burnout too.
And not like late Panasonic plasma burnout. But early plasma days level of burnout that never goes away.

It's for some so bad that their screens have been permanently marked by the channel logo after just watching a single soccer match.

Not just one panel. Not two but after the third most give up and have the sale voided (a we can here in norway)

Yeah I'm as keen as can be on Oled and if I could get a 75" guaranteed not to have these issues i would consider spending $6-7k on good one.

At the moment I'm just waiting.
I have rather decided to be an early adopter for VR rather than this.
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Re: 4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

Postby thebs » Sun May 01, 2016 12:04 am

TorTorden wrote:I'm hanging around on some other av forums and those LG oleds suffer from burnout too. And not like late Panasonic plasma burnout. But early plasma days level of burnout that never goes away. It's for some so bad that their screens have been permanently marked by the channel logo after just watching a single soccer match. Not just one panel. Not two but after the third most give up and have the sale voided (a we can here in norway)
OLED has memory, not burn-in. In fact, the memory issue has been solved with a very simple, effective solution ... refresh the cells periodically with another batch of data. It's organic, so the key to preventing anything from remaining is to cycle it. It can be done in a way that the user doesn't notice.

Everything I've seen in new models is that an image remains only temporarily when powered off. Again, memory, not burn-in. The burn-in would take weeks upon weeks.

BTW, I've had no less than three (3) OLED phones with no issues. But I don't leave images on them for days at a time. ;)

TorTorden wrote:Yeah I'm as keen as can be on Oled and if I could get a 75" guaranteed not to have these issues i would consider spending $6-7k on good one. At the moment I'm just waiting. I have rather decided to be an early adopter for VR rather than this.
That's why I'm waiting too. I was just looking at the really cheap 4K RGBW screens for US$200 in a 40-something inch (100cm+) format. But it seems all 4K TVs, short of OLED and a select, few other models, have severe issues with actual refresh rates.

But the OLED are coming down in price, and might be affordable next year. We'll see. The main manufacturing advantage of OLED is that that can basically be "just printed." So they are inevitably the future, including for non-rigid displays that can be hand-held. More binding and construction options are being explored every day.
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Re: 4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

Postby Susanna Saunders » Wed May 04, 2016 3:06 pm

thebs wrote:
Darr Valen wrote:I've played Elite on my Samsung SUHD tv in 4:4:4 mode. It's pretty sweet. From what I've read, a good tv that can do 4:2:2 can make it a nice stopgap while UHD monitors and capable hardware are still really Q2 2016 and beyond. Nothing is really equipped for proper UHD (not actually 4K) in the mainstream GPUs. The 980Ti is awesome as GPUs go, but for 60p gaming, it's next gen or reduce settings.
That's basically what I'm thinking.

Wait until early 2017 with the new GPUs shaking out some discounts, along with some true 4K@60Hz 4:4:4 Chroma (possibly also doing 1080p@120Hz over HDMI 2.0 too, a few 4K@60Hz options do) TVs are on-sale because they are the previous year's models.

Darr Valen wrote:I'd go 1440p with 100Hz+ refresh rates. Maybe invest in one of those awesome 21:9 WQHD screens that are popping up. Talk about immersive, eh?
I already have a dual (2) 27" 4K@60Hz DisplayPort true UHD for my desktop work, with Xft bumped to 200dpi. Like MacOS X (Cocoa), Linux (Cario, via both GTK+ and Qt) has been vector graphics for 12+ years, unlike the massive staple of Windows (bitmapped WinForms) applications still out there.

But when I game, I like a large format picture, typically 42-48" on a corner TV stand. I have my 7-8" high Mini-ITX cubes/rectangles on one of the shelves of the stand, along with a PS3 and a 3rd device (usually a streaming unit, or another Console). Hence my inquiry if I can push 4K@60Hz with a GTX 980 Ti 6GiB satisfactorily, and if the low-cost RGBW options are feasible. From what I'm reading, people still don't like the refresh rates of those low-cost units, even though some claim 6.5ms G-G.

So it's best to just wait for new GPUs and more true 4K/4:4:4 TVs to come out.

Darr Valen wrote:Personally, I'm waiting on replacing my 780 for the new x80 GPU this summer, with a displayport 1.4 capable monitor. No reason to buy something at the ass-end of a tech year like we are at now.
DisplayPort 1.2 does 4K just fine. I drive two (2) of them with just dual-DisplayPort 1.2.



I'm running at DCI 4k (@60hz) on my 31" LG 31MU97Z-B monitor together with an Eizo monitor at 1920x1200. That's on an old system with an R9 380 g/card in it! I think I'm getting around 25 to 50 fps. Surprising a i5 first gen cpu!

New puter on the way with i7 5820k / gtx 980ti so expecting good things!

Gorgeous screen btw if you are looking for a decent 4k monitor... Check it out!

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Re: 4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

Postby thebs » Wed May 04, 2016 5:43 pm

Susanna Saunders wrote:I'm running at DCI 4k (@60hz) on my 31" LG 31MU97Z-B monitor together with an Eizo monitor at 1920x1200. That's on an old system with an R9 380 g/card in it! I think I'm getting around 25 to 50 fps. Surprising a i5 first gen cpu!
New puter on the way with i7 5820k / gtx 980ti so expecting good things!
Gorgeous screen btw if you are looking for a decent 4k monitor... Check it out!
I was looking more for a TV in the 40"-something (100cm+) range.

I already have dual (2) 28' 4K@60Hz "monitors" via DisplayPort 1.2, which have a 1ms (GTG), although it doesn't support a 2K (1080p) signal tat 120Hz.

But I went ahead and checked out the LG 31MU97Z-B specifications (lg.com) and it is a beautiful 10-bit color IPS. Unfortunately, like a lot of IPS monitors, it has "5ms (G to G)" which means 60Hz (16ms) is all that it's likely capable of. But thanx for sharing your experiences, especially the FPS rates you're seeing.

As I mentioned in later posts, I'm going to wait on the next generation of low-cost, 40"-something TVs. It's not just for the 4:4:4 chroma and 4K @60Hz to get cheaper, but hopefully we'll see some 2K (1080p) @120Hz support built-in with HDMI 2.0. That way I can run older games at 1080p and get extremely high refresh rates too. So far the 4K panels w/2K @120Hz options are extremely rare, often require hacks and/or firmware changes, and they are virtually all lower color quality 6-bit color TN panels to get the refresh rate needed.
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Re: 4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

Postby TorTorden » Wed May 04, 2016 6:42 pm

thebs wrote:OLED has memory, not burn-in. In fact, the memory issue has been solved with a very simple, effective solution ... refresh the cells periodically with another batch of data. It's organic, so the key to preventing anything from remaining is to cycle it. It can be done in a way that the user doesn't notice.


That's just one of the burnout problems and what LG admits to.
What they do not admit too is the fact the light emitting parts of these Oled pixels litterally burn out and will be permanently damaged.
Only way to fix a burned out pixel is to swap the entire panel.

Its mostly about the $2.5k 50" fullhd panels, most of these are from the first run so obviously they have gotten better (i hope).
I know these people and its very particular local channel logo (its atrocious we have complaining to them for years).

Facts are.
Brand new tv. Owner watch one soccer match about 90 minutes long.
Tv is permanently damaged.
Its repaired with a brand new panel.
Owner receives tv. Watches the soccer next week.
Tv is permanently damaged.

We aren't talking about people who leave their desktops displayed on the tv for a night either.
But one 90 minute soccer match.

Even the newest line are having concerns with uhd hdr that since this pretty much overdrives the oled pixels light output so just running at peak light output for more than a few seconds, hdr will physically damage the pixels.
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Re: 4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

Postby Darr Valen » Wed May 04, 2016 6:54 pm

Susanna Saunders wrote:
thebs wrote:
Darr Valen wrote:I've played Elite on my Samsung SUHD tv in 4:4:4 mode. It's pretty sweet. From what I've read, a good tv that can do 4:2:2 can make it a nice stopgap while UHD monitors and capable hardware are still really Q2 2016 and beyond. Nothing is really equipped for proper UHD (not actually 4K) in the mainstream GPUs. The 980Ti is awesome as GPUs go, but for 60p gaming, it's next gen or reduce settings.
That's basically what I'm thinking.

Wait until early 2017 with the new GPUs shaking out some discounts, along with some true 4K@60Hz 4:4:4 Chroma (possibly also doing 1080p@120Hz over HDMI 2.0 too, a few 4K@60Hz options do) TVs are on-sale because they are the previous year's models.

Darr Valen wrote:I'd go 1440p with 100Hz+ refresh rates. Maybe invest in one of those awesome 21:9 WQHD screens that are popping up. Talk about immersive, eh?
I already have a dual (2) 27" 4K@60Hz DisplayPort true UHD for my desktop work, with Xft bumped to 200dpi. Like MacOS X (Cocoa), Linux (Cario, via both GTK+ and Qt) has been vector graphics for 12+ years, unlike the massive staple of Windows (bitmapped WinForms) applications still out there.

But when I game, I like a large format picture, typically 42-48" on a corner TV stand. I have my 7-8" high Mini-ITX cubes/rectangles on one of the shelves of the stand, along with a PS3 and a 3rd device (usually a streaming unit, or another Console). Hence my inquiry if I can push 4K@60Hz with a GTX 980 Ti 6GiB satisfactorily, and if the low-cost RGBW options are feasible. From what I'm reading, people still don't like the refresh rates of those low-cost units, even though some claim 6.5ms G-G.

So it's best to just wait for new GPUs and more true 4K/4:4:4 TVs to come out.

Darr Valen wrote:Personally, I'm waiting on replacing my 780 for the new x80 GPU this summer, with a displayport 1.4 capable monitor. No reason to buy something at the ass-end of a tech year like we are at now.
DisplayPort 1.2 does 4K just fine. I drive two (2) of them with just dual-DisplayPort 1.2.



I'm running at DCI 4k (@60hz) on my 31" LG 31MU97Z-B monitor together with an Eizo monitor at 1920x1200. That's on an old system with an R9 380 g/card in it! I think I'm getting around 25 to 50 fps. Surprising a i5 first gen cpu!

New puter on the way with i7 5820k / gtx 980ti so expecting good things!

Gorgeous screen btw if you are looking for a decent 4k monitor... Check it out!



I love my 5820k. It's night and day in terms of power compared to my 4770k.. which felt powerful before.

Still, I'm wanting to future proof my next monitor a bit, so I'll still be waiting for DP1.4 and the new GPUs this june. I know that there are good monitor out now, and I did consider the LG you have, and I almost bought it a few times. I'd just rather wait for the tech to mature into 2016 models. 2015 was the starting year for the first proper mainstream UHD TV's, and 2016 is the year for the PC UHD roll out.
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OLED and Memory

Postby thebs » Wed May 04, 2016 7:34 pm

TorTorden wrote: That's just one of the burnout problems and what LG admits to. What they do not admit too is the fact the light emitting parts of these Oled pixels litterally burn out and will be permanently damaged. Only way to fix a burned out pixel is to swap the entire panel.
Ummm, that's a different issue. That's literally a design failure and/or involves low-yield issue whereby sold defective units.

OLED has memory. The problem is when they don't handle it correctly, and it runs the cell, which should never, ever happen on a mass number of pixels. If the design is flawed and/or they had so many panels fail tests (again low yield), and they sold them to consumers any way, that's on Samsung.

And yes, of course, the whole panel has to be replaced. That's no different than any "matrix" solution, like any LCD for that matter.

Again, the idea of "memory" is just inherent to OLED, like it is to Nickel-based battery technologies. Everything is a balance. I mean, we moved from Nickel to Lithium to get away from not only the "memory" issue, but the necessary current improvements, at the cost of safety, because Nickel only melts while Lithium totally combusts. We put regulatory logic in Lithium designs to mitigate the risk.

The same has to be done with OLED to mitigate the risk of the memory causing issues. We like OLED over backlit (LED or otherwise) LCD, because of so many advantages (too many to list). If Samsung sold something that was not design mitigated and/or had poor yields but they shipped those bad yields anyway, that's totally on them. Doesn't mean the technology is flawed. It means Samsung engineering (or business) was. ;)

As I always joked, when someone said they should "Make the Shuttle Safe!"
If you want a completely risk mitigated Shuttle Transport System (STS), it'll never be launched, much more it will never make it to the pad and actually be fueled! Everything is about mitigating risk.
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Re: OLED and Memory

Postby TorTorden » Thu May 05, 2016 12:09 am

thebs wrote:
TorTorden wrote: That's just one of the burnout problems and what LG admits to. What they do not admit too is the fact the light emitting parts of these Oled pixels litterally burn out and will be permanently damaged. Only way to fix a burned out pixel is to swap the entire panel.
Ummm, that's a different issue. That's literally a design failure and/or involves low-yield issue whereby sold defective units.

OLED has memory. The problem is when they don't handle it correctly, and it runs the cell, which should never, ever happen on a mass number of pixels. If the design is flawed and/or they had so many panels fail tests (again low yield), and they sold them to consumers any way, that's on Samsung.

And yes, of course, the whole panel has to be replaced. That's no different than any "matrix" solution, like any LCD for that matter.

Again, the idea of "memory" is just inherent to OLED, like it is to Nickel-based battery technologies. Everything is a balance. I mean, we moved from Nickel to Lithium to get away from not only the "memory" issue, but the necessary current improvements, at the cost of safety, because Nickel only melts while Lithium totally combusts. We put regulatory logic in Lithium designs to mitigate the risk.

The same has to be done with OLED to mitigate the risk of the memory causing issues. We like OLED over backlit (LED or otherwise) LCD, because of so many advantages (too many to list). If Samsung sold something that was not design mitigated and/or had poor yields but they shipped those bad yields anyway, that's totally on them. Doesn't mean the technology is flawed. It means Samsung engineering (or business) was. ;)

As I always joked, when someone said they should "Make the Shuttle Safe!"
If you want a completely risk mitigated Shuttle Transport System (STS), it'll never be launched, much more it will never make it to the pad and actually be fueled! Everything is about mitigating risk.


Oh absolutely Oled for the win no contest.
I have been salivating over Oled since they started saying "5 years away" some near twenty years ago ;p
But since LG has the monopoly on large panels and this is burnout is a potential problem with their design I have yet to feel comfortable spending any money on a display.

That and I want a 75" TV if I'm spending serious money.
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As for safety I think the world has gone utter bonkers.
Then again I grew up actually climbing trees (often a mile away from my house so if I did fall out of it I would probably have been dead before someone found me) sometimes it involved a small .22 caliber rifle.
All before I hit 12 and realised I was a giant computer nerd.

I grew up in a rural area. So much so in fact that if you set off walking in any direction other than my closest neighbour you would be more likely to meet a bear than a person.
That was my backyard.

Anyhoo I apologise for any spelling mistakes or non sensical sentences. I have full blown Aspergers and three glasses of wine ;)
So even when sober I have massive communication issues.
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