New Rig: GTX vs RTX

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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby Canithor » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:47 pm

I would have to agree with Thor. I currently have a dual 1080ti and own a Vive pro. I get excited when I am about to play a game in VR. Especially Elite Dangerous. I am considering another upgrade because I am an idiot that way (its bonus season where I work lol). You truly won't go wrong if you go with a 1080ti. You may get a slow fps every now and again but it is few and far between. Then again, I don't play open (at least not until I get accepted into Mobius PVE America). I think RTX ti would be overkill. Only reason why I am thinking of upgrading is because I want to play games like CyberPunk 2077 at the highest settings with Ray tracing. Other than that, my rig would be sufficient even if it was just the single 1080ti.

Just my two cent :)
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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby schwifty » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:12 am

> Granted I might be a little insane

hrhr ;-)
Well I am about to pay >2k for a rig only so I can play Elite in VR, so you're not alone being insane :-D

I don't know either why Sony can't just put better hardware in that freakin box. They care too much for casual gamers on budget I think. I wouldn't bother laying down 2k for an adequate gaming console working perfectly out of the box without having to struggle with all you have to when building a gaming pc. But seems I'm a minority. As a sysadmin, the (other) primary use of my workstation is actually just terminals and browser; while putting a ~800W psu and a RTX2080Ti is quite more insane.

Anyway, I read that the odyssey is bulkier and kinda has software bugs, but better image quality? Pimax seems to be also not really the big shit.

HTC is a no-go for me, not at least because I don't intend to walk around. It's sufficient I can look back / around in the ship.

I'm still picking hardware. Mostly trouble with planning air-flow and dimensions of components cause I'd rather like to have a mATX board/case.
That's what I'd call an oddyssey :-D

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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby TorTorden » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:31 pm

Pimax is rather new and they are the only ones to be pushing VR forwards apart from those other few with $6000 HMD's, one of which has gone bankrupt already.
Htc is staving off their own demise at this point and does overpriced minor iterations. The big question is when Oculus brings out a new device and it can't be just a minor iteration either, but I suppose they are holding out for a few techs to mature a little.

For a user end point that's probably better

Pimax is going ahead with what they can and I am fully expecting as a backer to be mostly a larger scale beta tester.

I would have loved to be able to give the pimax unit a stamp of approval but the one they sent me for my Kickstarter pledge was DOA out of the box, they are of course sending a replacement and I would describe their support as passing, can use improvement. Then again what corporations support line isn't a giant pain?

Although probably far less frustrating than regular Dell support or HP.
And for most who has gotten one, they usually find it hard to go back to a rift after having the larger fov.
And the release of the vive was just as bad a while back if not worse.
The first few months of having the vive I think I almost spent 1:1 in time trouble shooting vs playing.
I don't regret a second though.

All HMD's has software bugs the most polished of the lot though is still the Oculus rift.
And for your use probably the one I would recommend
And I think a lot issues with VR was solved when I moved from an older ddr3 platform to a newer ddr4 system, it seems to be making use of and is better tuned for the newer chipsets.

One concession for the rift is needing a lot out of your USB ports, so getting a usb3 pci expansion board is a good solution and would just be $15-$20.
I was a little disappointed by the USB offering of my z370 board.

Then again I have three keyboards, a mouse, a trackball, two joysticks, a throttle and pedals, microphones and various headsets connected..
► Show Spoiler


As for trouble it's nothing compared to before.
Building a rig has honestly never been easier and it's usually more frustrating assembling a piece from Ikea.

Most people who have problems often cause them themselves by trying to force windows into not updating through random registry hacks or even still clinging to windows 7 which at this point has no support for VR at all.
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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby thebs » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:14 pm

TorTorden wrote:Disregarding RTX feature ...

If you For instance want to go full VR.
Well a 2080ti would still leave you wanting.
Agreed. Top card for VR ... always, especially if the new Vive that does higher resolution.

That said ...
TorTorden wrote:Personally I don't recommend 4k, better off imo to go with something like a 1440p monitor at 120hz+
basically a similar deal as above and pq difference between 1440p and 4k rather swimmingly small and much more perceivable than 1080p vs 1440p.
^^^ This for non-VR!

I actually have a 27" 144Hz 1080p that I bought for <<$200 (sale once VR came out, as the monitor also does shutter 3D glasses) awhile back. It doesn't even have FreeSync, but I leave it fixed at 120Hz. I had to step-it-down to 100Hz for a few games before I got my GTX 1080 Ti. But once you go 90-144Hz, you never want to go back.

In fact, it's VR and its 90Hz that pushed me to get at least a 90Hz+ capable 'regular monitor.' At 27" 16:9, the 1080p is barely visible.

But today, one can get a 32" Samsung VA type panel (under various brands) in 100-144Hz in a 16:9 panel for $250-350, and I'd push people to get the 1440p (3440x1440) over the 1080p (1920x1080), because at 32", you're going to see pixels. It's worth the extra pixels, but make sure you have a GPU to drive it.

With nVidia supporting VESA Adaptive Sync (AMD Freesync), there's little reason to go G-Sync unless you absolutely want to pay for the hardware and absolutely have to have the best at adaptive sync.

And on that note ...

TorTorden wrote:As for regular 1080p@60 it doesn't take all that much, a 1060 6GB would be all you need.
At this point I'd recommend the new RTX 2060 if you're considering the 1060-1070. It's worth the extra $100 for new generation.

Although the new option might be the GTX 1660 Ti, which actually uses Telsa (RTX) GPU. The question is, will the ray tracing (RTX feature) be disabled? It's supposed to be close to the RTX 2060, but about 15-20% slower, but at a sub-$230 price point in March-April (sub-$280 next mid-February).
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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby thebs » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:44 pm

schwifty wrote:I don't know either why Sony can't just put better hardware in that freakin box.

Economies-of-scale. Consoles will always lag. Credit Microsoft for putting a better GPU in the XBox One X, along with the AMD x86-64 'refit,' especially since Sony is leading sales, so they have no incentive to do so. Microsoft is 'crawling back' to Sony's volume with new sales, although they're still losing money in the division.

MS Office and a growing Azure Cloud (which uses Linux in its core, software defined infrastructure -- I have many, former Red Hat colleagues there now) is what keeps them well into the black. Credit Nadella for making Office 365 very competitive to Google. I pay for G-suite, and sometimes I wish Google took non-Chrome browsers on Linux as serious as Microsoft did.

Now it's going to get interesting once very powerful, Linux/aarch64 (ARMv8 aka ARM64) gaming systems show up early next decade.
► Show Spoiler

schwifty wrote:They care too much for casual gamers on budget I think.

Smart business, the money is in the titles, not the hardware.
They always lose money on the hardware the first 2-3 years.

Microsoft is still losing money in their console unit, always has.
They really fell behind in PS4 v. XBox One, even though they are almost the exact same hardware.

And when you're behind, you end up making a much better console, like the XBox One X is, unlike the PS4 Pro (or the prior XBox One S).

schwifty wrote: I wouldn't bother laying down 2k for an adequate gaming console working perfectly out of the box without having to struggle with all you have to when building a gaming pc.

That's what Valve is trying to do. Credit Microsoft for 'strong-arming' game houses to force them to release via the Microsoft Store, and botching it so bad, everyone ran back to Steam. Because the second Microsoft did that, Valve immediately released their internal Linux work. Why?

They 'held back' on doing so, because Microsoft would have attempted to stomp on them, just like they did to Corel prior.
► Show Spoiler

schwifty wrote: ut seems I'm a minority. As a sysadmin, the (other) primary use of my workstation is actually just terminals and browser

Which is all what most people need, whether personal or professional. Microsoft recognized this by putting a lot of money into Office 365. And they focused on working on non-Windows platforms. It was so good that even Red Hat considered Office 365 over G-Suite when they first evaluated it 5 years ago.

No joke.

schwifty wrote:while putting a ~800W psu and a RTX2080Ti is quite more insane.
But you actually don't need that. In fact, beyond the CPU, PCIe is really a result of Intel's crap-poor system interconnect. There are much lower power system interconnect which, when combined with the CPUs with the GPUs on the same, system interconnect, would cut power quite significantly.

Don't get me wrong, the GPU on its own will still suck up a lot. But a lot of the support chips are due to Intel not knowing how to design an interconnect, but API Networks did for AMD. Alpha Processor Inc (API), it lives on.

The recent rash of security vulnerabilities, which affected Intel the most, is because they have so many freaking hacks to make their TLB work for cache coherency, because they never designed a real system interconnect, and relied on 'shared busses' forever.
► Show Spoiler

schwifty wrote:Anyway, I read that the odyssey is bulkier and kinda has software bugs, but better image quality? Pimax seems to be also not really the big shit.
HTC is a no-go for me, not at least because I don't intend to walk around. It's sufficient I can look back / around in the ship.
I'm still picking hardware. Mostly trouble with planning air-flow and dimensions of components cause I'd rather like to have a mATX board/case.
That's what I'd call an oddyssey :-D

I assemble Mini-ITX (really Mini-DTX, 2-slot case, with Mini-ITX board).
That way I'm mega-portable.

SilverStone makes quality 600-650W SFX SFF power supplies, and that's enough to power a ~100W CPU and ~250W GPU, plus some SSDs and 2.5" hybrid SSHDs. I have five (5) drives in my system, 2TB NAND SSD + four (4) 2TB hybrid SSHDs in RAID-10.
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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby schwifty » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:31 am

Very interesting, thanks for the insight and explanation!

I've never been a fan of x86, since good ol' Amiga days on. And I indeed know that x86 is hacky and inefficient compared to ARM.
I also know what the p, i and z Series are capable of – I worked at IBM administrating these fine machines. (P.S. Red Hat fan here ;-) )

Finally I picked the parts and placed my order. 2.3k € here in germany. whoooosh.
I hope at least the parts are fitting in the case :-D I like how the BitFenix Logo looks a little bit like Elite :-D

- BitFenix Phenom M mATX white
- Asus TUF Z390M-Pro Gaming [WI-FI]
- Intel Core i5 9600K
- 32GB (2x 16384MB) Crucial Ballistix Sport LT Dual Rank DDR4-3000 DIMM CL16-18-18
- EKL Alpenföhn Olymp
- 800w Silverstone Strider Titanium ST80F-TI
- 11GB Gainward GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Phoenix GS

I know – cpu cooler and PSU are slightly overkill, but hey, life's short.

If everything works, I'll go for the Rift then. 399€ currently an amzn.

I never tried Steam for Linux. I only have Windows for Games. If I could get rid of that, fantastic. Still can't understand how everyone actually working with that crap still didn't jump out of their ... windows. (ha!)

@TorTorden: That's a cool desk :-D well done! Looking forward to build a mount for my Hotas, too. Though I still only got the T.Flight 4. But it actually suits me well for the time being.

Anyway, very big thanks to all answers here! See you in the black, I'd say :-) o7

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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby TorTorden » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:20 pm

It's not my desk.
My jury rigged VR flight station :)
With DIY hotas stand.

My desk is behind me to my 7 O'clock in the other corner.

I had a diy all in one at some point but in the end it wasn't ideal for either use, especially for desktop use.
This way I get something stable for my flight gear and a huge desk.

As for overkill goes I'm running a 1000 watt psu and a corsair i115 AIO cooler.
I'm probably not even using half integrated wattage and the CPU doesn't really exceed mid fifties while gaming.
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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby schwifty » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:58 pm

yeah ok sorry, "desk" was a bit wrong but I meant the right :D
at least the monitor is missing what makes it kinda obvious :D

Oh by the way, is it actually possible to have VR also in Desktop mode ? Under Linux?
omg, my dreams would come true - Shell in VR with i3 tiling window manager in 3D :P

I thought about anyhow building stands for the stick and the throttle, but the connect-cable is a bit too short and so my chair's rests are in the way.
Isn't your stick a bit high? where do you rest your arms? I bet you got muscles :-D

Regarding psu, I think it's anyway more important to have a good efficiency factor, so a 1000w will not even start to blow unless you're gaming.
For a AiO wc I was too anxious it could break and destroy my cpu. And I have massive problems with the airflow design in about every case.

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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby schwifty » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:56 am

hmmmmmmhhh ... I am no more sure if Oculus Rift is the better choice for Elite ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0leNzzUlAI4

Seems Pimax is the better device for Elite - has anybody experience in using both for comparism?

I don't care too much for other VR games. Maybe some day I'll try Dirt, Gran Turismo, or some other racing/flight sim.
But the focus is really Elite.

Help :cry:

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Re: New Rig: GTX vs RTX

Postby TorTorden » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:06 pm

There is a lot of pimax backers from their Kickstarters on the frontier VR forum.

And I am one of them. (Gone for the 5k+)

The video you linked is to the 4k, which is a completely different product.

unfortunately the HMD they shipped me a few weeks ago was DOA.

But their support system was not a major pain to deal with.
I have had far worse, HP, non prime Dell, Compaq. Dear Lord Compaq, ok that was a while ago...

And they are shipping me a replacement already that should arrive by next week.

In total I got my unit about three weeks ago.
And have gone through their support and getting it replaced with very little fuss.

And as a Kickstarter backer I would consider my self as a soft launch/ beta tester anyways.

Spec wise this is the first 2.0 HMD most likely.

I just wish I didn't have a dud so I could give a proper review :)

Hopefully by next week I should be able to say more.
But I have both a vive and rift from before.

Pretty much, apart from new product bugs in the pimax, the only thing the rift has over it is black levels but oled panels are far less perfect than a lot of people seem to believe and the rift can be a genuine lottery in the panel department.

Addendum:

Sims are what shine in VR.
Crashing down the nurburgring in the dark in projectcars2 is amazing but keep in mind a set of wheels and pedals are required or you sort of break all immersion rather than adding to it.

And can't recommend the Huey in dcs more.

As for other titles.

Well update you to YouTube search VR kanojo..
Yeah that's exactly what it looks like.
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