Is the Oculus dead? Harsh words by LinusTech

[AJH]

Actually, that's an utterly false statement, at odds with longstanding PC reality.

I don't consider Apple to be part of the PC space. They are their own special entity, but I'll grant you they are the exception to doing exclusive things, but even that's limited to their OS.

Yes, there are other things that are proprietary technologies within the PC space, but there are absolutely zero games and one piece of software (OSX) you are actively blocked from playing or using if you don't have x graphics card or y keyboard or z memory brand within the general PC ecosystem. There is a night and day difference between actively preventing and restricting people from using something without a particular peripheral and simply not providing support for competitors yourself. I'm not saying I expect Oculus to write their own OpenVR driver or to write their own version of Revive. I'm saying I expect them not to put a hardware DRM lock on their software preventing others from doing it.

Note: it is worth pointing out that you DO see this kind of active exclusivity within software though. Plenty of software requires that you use other software actively. But then again, that kind of DRM is pretty hated within the space by enthusiasts as well.

[AJH]

It will be slow, change many times, but it's coming. The days of the TV -- as a distribution solution for entertainment and media -- are already very limited.

Not really, VR is a new medium, but not a replacement to TV. It's more like comparing radio/music streaming to TV. It is a truly new medium with a variety of different strengths and weaknesses from that of television. Flat games and TVs are not going away, at most, AR may enable us, down the road, to not have a physical TV set, but the idea of a guided visual experience has such a deep and meaningful language to it for story telling that it won't go away. We are already realizing the limitations of VR in this regard. Yes, it can put you in the situation in a way TV can not, however it is also far more difficult to guide the viewer or tell the story of others as the VR participant needs to be a participant in the story.

Now, yes, the distribution of visual story telling is going to change. Network television failed to move in to the 21st century and is dying as a result. It's being replaced with the likes of Amazon and Netflix and Hulu who are stepping in realizing the need to have a more direct connection between viewers and their shows of interest. It's a lower risk and higher demand market that fits better in to consumers lives and cuts out the wasted money on noise that people have no interest in. It's a major change in direction and will stir up that space, but the TV show format and movies are not going away any time soon.

That said, however, I absolutely agree with your conclusion that it is entirely about control, which makes it even more boggling that they aren't willing to open the store up to other hardware which would be in their best interest unless they want to try to dominate the market, but I'm pretty sure they already lost that battle. They'd be far better served by trying to make sure they have the iTunes of VR content.

[thebs]

Actually, that's an utterly false statement, at odds with longstanding PC reality.

I don't consider Apple to be part of the PC space. They are their own special entity, but I'll grant you they are the exception to doing exclusive things, but even that's limited to their OS.

Obviously you don't know much about the PC architecture and Apple. They are Intel's #1 PC vendor now, right down to the same, base firmware ... which then Apple does all sorts of things to.

It is completely a PC now, has been ever since they started shipping 32-bit uEFI, let alone changed to 64-bit uEFI.

Yes, there are other things that are proprietary technologies within the PC space, but there are absolutely zero games and one piece of software (OSX) you are actively blocked from playing or using if you don't have x graphics card or y keyboard or z memory brand within the general PC ecosystem.

Okay, we're done. I cannot speak to someone who has a 3 degree view of the PC space. You utterly missed all my points. But that's what happens when you deal with the unfamiliar that only knows what they know, and sees nothing else.

Sorry I bothered. I mean, on just AMD v. nVidia, you're ignoring a whole swath of AMD only and nVidia-only games!

[thebs]

It will be slow, change many times, but it's coming. The days of the TV -- as a distribution solution for entertainment and media -- are already very limited.

Not really, VR is a new medium, but not a replacement to TV. It's more like comparing radio/music streaming to TV.

And how is radio revenue these days in the US? Isn't TV basically dealing with the same profit drop-offs? We're talking a major change in how things are, especially as the Baby Boomers die off in the US. Again, 2025+ is going to be very interesting.

I never said TV was dead. I said it's dying as a profitable medium. It's going turn back to what it was originally, access, not control. The statistics don't lie. Even live sports in the US are taking major hits in revenue. Profit is driven by advertising.

Interactive entertainment is the future, heavily so. Story telling through interactive. In the '50s, they called this "2-way TV."

[AJH]

Obviously you don't know much about the PC architecture and Apple. They are Intel's #1 PC vendor now, right down to the same, base firmware ... which then Apple does all sorts of things to!

I'm not talking at a CPU level. I know they are computers capable of running Linux or Windows. What I mean is that they are a bit of a special case in the computer space that is very different from anyone else out there. They play by a very different set of rules than the entire rest of the computer industry due to the way their fans are.

[AJH]

I mean, on just AMD v. nVidia, you're ignoring a whole swath of AMD only and nVidia-only games!

Name one single game that is AMD or nVidia specific that doesn't work on the other. I've never seen a single one that isn't purely a tech demo. Even so, it's a completely different thing as the software is not specifically doing a DRM check to verify the hardware. At worst, you have a feature that isn't supported by the other hardware that only works with a particular card. It isn't that both cards could do it and the software simply refuses to work with the capable hardware because it isn't the other maker.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering as you seem to have no interest in understanding what I'm saying but would rather hurl personal insults about someone's knowledge of the industry.

[AJH]

I never said TV was dead. I said it's dying as a profitable medium. It's going turn back to what it was originally, access, not control.

Fair enough, I may have been projecting a bit as I've seen a lot of people talking very similarly that think it will kill TV. It won't, but you are right that it will, at a minimum, democratize media more. We were already headed down that path with streaming. Media content is moving rapidly towards something more directly funded by consumers and far less wasteful overall.

I'm not sure exactly how VR will play in to that balance. I still suspect people are going to like their passive storytelling though. I've done plenty of VR and still enjoy TV shows, but I certainly don't enjoy advertising or cable. A lot will depend on what trends emerge in how we tell stories in VR and we're still a bit early to have a clear picture there.

Interactive entertainment is the future, heavily so. Story telling through interactive. In the '50s, they called this "2-way TV."

Maybe. As I was just mentioning, there is a lot of questions that still have to be answered about narrative devices. There are a lot of things you can't do in a VR setting that you can do when watching something passively. Interactive entertainment is certainly here to stay, but I have a strong feeling that non-interactive content, while it may change delivery mechanisms, is also not going anywhere.

[smartroad]

I've heard people ask if VR is just a fad. If anything is a fad, I think roomscale may be the 3DTV of the VR marketplace. Once they get touch feed back gloves figured out, that let you see "your hands" truly interacting with 3D objects, like keyboards and flight controllers, as well as door knobs and light switches - basically the holodeck experience inside a headset - then I'll think they really have something. I'll I've seen of room scale and hand controllers is people throwing their hands around apparently shooting at things (from the hip or thug style). I mean it may be a great new experience, but I'm pretty sure the sit down simulator experience is here to stay.

Having got the Vive, in part because of room scale tracking, I don't think that it will be a fad. One of the included games is Fantastic Contraption and I was happily sat on my floor building machines around me (and this weird green cat that produces the bits I needed ) Sometimes I needed to reach round so I had to stand up and move about and that feels so natural compared to having the press a button to move forward. Another game I got was called 'The Lab' and again it wouldn't have worked so well if I had been sat down at a chair.

I think the problem with room scale VR is encapsulated by what you said "I'll I've seen of room scale and hand controllers is people throwing their hands around apparently shooting at things (from the hip or thug style)". Every time you see room scale advertised you see:



Which makes most normal people go "I don't want to look like a twat, waving my arms around at nothing!". I'd be lying if I said I didn't close the blinds on the window in the room I have setup, for that exact reason - people outside may think I am having a fit or something LOL (I don't do it as much now) I think HTC/Valve have identified this as an issue because they have been using a green screen that allows people to see what the gamer is seeing as if the gamer is actually in the environment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYfNzhLXYGc

I don't think room scale is a fad, it does have an image problem much like Nintendo did with the original Wii controllers. But once people understood how much more natural that method was it caught on. I think the same will happen with room scale, at first people will worry about what they look like, but eventually once they realise the immersion it offers, they soon stop to care and get engrossed in the experience.

[TorTorden]

Room play is certainly not a fad, that might be something oculus owners might think since it just does not do room scale.

Even standing with the rift is a problem. I practically have to re-calibrate the rift and move the tracking camera position between seated and standing games.
The rift cable is basically getting plugged into the back of your PC like anything else but it's cable is almost 2m shorter than the vive.

The vive has the little box you attach so the termination point for the device is exactly where it is most practically to be, in result the cable on the vive has significantly more reach.

All this before you add things like the Tron camera, the chaperone system and the vive controllers (OK those could have been better)

Comparing VR and 3d TV is just silly.

[Roger Wilco Jr]

... I think HTC/Valve have identified this as an issue because they have been using a green screen that allows people to see what the gamer is seeing as if the gamer is actually in the environment:

That video does help, but it's still basically a tech demo. They show twenty 5-second clips of various games. They even accidentally had a 1-second clip of ED, sitting with a HOTAS - can you imagine playing ED with these hand controllers? Most of those games looked like an interesting and cool experience, but I didn't see how any of those could capture my attention for more than a few hours. I do want to be able to stand up, duck & dodge, hide behind objects, and take a few steps - but I want so much more. In all those demos you appeared to just stand there or move around in a very limited (room) space. I want to see how world space works. How do you walk around inside a house, going from room to room, down the stairs, out to the garage, into the car, and drive down the street? Or how do you run through the forest, slither on the ground for cover, jump up on a tank and drop a grenade through the hatch, steal a Jeep and drive around until you fine a helicopter and etc? This is stuff you can do in a sitting game for years, but I don't see how you can make the movements and transitions using room scale. And one of the most annoying things is these animated floating hands, like with the fry cook game and some rock climbing game I saw. I think that looks totally lame and gimmicky. I want to see hands and arms, and if I look down, my whole body.

So, yeah, I do really want VR. I'm sure I can find years of things to do, with ED, flight sims, and driving sims. And I do want room scale, at least eventually. But once the ooohs and aaahs wear off, will there be anything lasting? And the controllers do look very limiting, like you are interacting with the world holding two spatulas. And I seem to be missing one critical requirement - 3 or 4 people sitting on the couch watching me. As a party game/experience, again it looks like fun, but it looks like that would get old fast. What I really need is world simulator for use with a treadmill - maybe it will get some use if I could walk around different environments.

Comparing VR and 3d TV is just silly.

Especially when you haven't experienced either, but I did say I may have been (was) talking out my ass.