4K@60Hz in the 2.x Horizons generation (plus thoughs on RGBW 4:2:x options?)

[thebs]

For those already doing 4K, couple of questions ...

Q1: Horizons 2.x 4K Performance - Will a GTX 980 Ti 6GiB still push 4K@60Hz consistently? Or does 2.0+ really taxi a 980 Ti 6GiB that much more?
Q2: Low-cost "4K" RGBW Options - Anyone gaming on one of those low-cost, 40-something inch "4K" (not really) RGBW TV options? If so, what do you think? Have you compared it to a 1440p? Or at least 1080p?

Details ...

I'm currently playing on a low-end, 1080p 42" LG TV. I started with a GTX 660 Ti, then moved to a GTX 970 and am now up to a GTX 980 Ti in preparation for the eventual jump to VR in a few months. I've played on a 27" 1440p LCD monitor once, and enjoyed the increased resolution and sharpness over 1080p.

The price for HDMI 2.0 + HDCP 2.2 TVs keeps coming down, and now there are those low-cost RGBW 4:2 options for <<$300 in 40-something inches. The GTX 980 Ti already offers HDMI 2.0, so I'm seriously considering getting one. I would never use a RGBW "4K" TV as a computer monitor. In fact, I have a true 4K DP 1.2 monitor for computer usage. But this is 100% for gaming.

Thanx in advance!

[pargyrak]

I have both a 4K and 1440p monitors on a 980Ti.

On the 1440p I get contsantly 60fps without the Ti breaking a sweat

On the 4K I can hear the fans wrking harder and I get 45fpr on planetery approach

[Bowza]

why not wait for an 8k TV in a few months when they drop?

[Darr Valen]

why not wait for an 8k TV in a few months when they drop?

Not sure if serious or confusing 8k, 4K, and UHD.

I've played Elite on my Samsung SUHD tv in 4:4:4 mode. It's pretty sweet.

From what I've read, a good tv that can do 4:2:2 can make it a nice stopgap while UHD monitors and capable hardware are still really Q2 2016 and beyond.

Nothing is really equipped for proper UHD (not actually 4K) in the mainstream GPUs. The 980Ti is awesome as GPUs go, but for 60p gaming, it's next gen or reduce settings.

I'd go 1440p with 100Hz+ refresh rates. Maybe invest in one of those awesome 21:9 WQHD screens that are popping up. Talk about immersive, eh?

Personally, I'm waiting on replacing my 780 for the new x80 GPU this summer, with a displayport 1.4 capable monitor. No reason to buy something at the ass-end of a tech year like we are at now.

[thebs]

I've played Elite on my Samsung SUHD tv in 4:4:4 mode. It's pretty sweet. From what I've read, a good tv that can do 4:2:2 can make it a nice stopgap while UHD monitors and capable hardware are still really Q2 2016 and beyond. Nothing is really equipped for proper UHD (not actually 4K) in the mainstream GPUs. The 980Ti is awesome as GPUs go, but for 60p gaming, it's next gen or reduce settings.

That's basically what I'm thinking.

Wait until early 2017 with the new GPUs shaking out some discounts, along with some true 4K@60Hz 4:4:4 Chroma (possibly also doing 1080p@120Hz over HDMI 2.0 too, a few 4K@60Hz options do) TVs are on-sale because they are the previous year's models.

I'd go 1440p with 100Hz+ refresh rates. Maybe invest in one of those awesome 21:9 WQHD screens that are popping up. Talk about immersive, eh?

I already have a dual (2) 27" 4K@60Hz DisplayPort true UHD for my desktop work, with Xft bumped to 200dpi. Like MacOS X (Cocoa), Linux (Cario, via both GTK+ and Qt) has been vector graphics for 12+ years, unlike the massive staple of Windows (bitmapped WinForms) applications still out there.

But when I game, I like a large format picture, typically 42-48" on a corner TV stand. I have my 7-8" high Mini-ITX cubes/rectangles on one of the shelves of the stand, along with a PS3 and a 3rd device (usually a streaming unit, or another Console). Hence my inquiry if I can push 4K@60Hz with a GTX 980 Ti 6GiB satisfactorily, and if the low-cost RGBW options are feasible. From what I'm reading, people still don't like the refresh rates of those low-cost units, even though some claim 6.5ms G-G.

So it's best to just wait for new GPUs and more true 4K/4:4:4 TVs to come out.

Personally, I'm waiting on replacing my 780 for the new x80 GPU this summer, with a displayport 1.4 capable monitor. No reason to buy something at the ass-end of a tech year like we are at now.

DisplayPort 1.2 does 4K just fine. I drive two (2) of them with just dual-DisplayPort 1.2.

[thebs]

I have both a 4K and 1440p monitors on a 980Ti.
On the 1440p I get contsantly 60fps without the Ti breaking a sweat
On the 4K I can hear the fans wrking harder and I get 45fpr on planetery approach

Yep, that was my main concern. Thank you for hitting it. I mean, there's a lot of commentary on Elite doing 4K@60Hz just fine ... but it's all 1.x release from what I've seen.

I'm shelving this to 2017 then. And I might just stick with VR any way.

Big time thanx to Darr Valen and paragyrak for the info and input!

[Darr Valen]

I've played Elite on my Samsung SUHD tv in 4:4:4 mode. It's pretty sweet. From what I've read, a good tv that can do 4:2:2 can make it a nice stopgap while UHD monitors and capable hardware are still really Q2 2016 and beyond. Nothing is really equipped for proper UHD (not actually 4K) in the mainstream GPUs. The 980Ti is awesome as GPUs go, but for 60p gaming, it's next gen or reduce settings.

That's basically what I'm thinking.

Wait until early 2017 with the new GPUs shaking out some discounts, along with some true 4K@60Hz 4:4:4 Chroma (possibly also doing 1080p@120Hz over HDMI 2.0 too, a few 4K@60Hz options do) TVs are on-sale because they are the previous year's models.

I'd go 1440p with 100Hz+ refresh rates. Maybe invest in one of those awesome 21:9 WQHD screens that are popping up. Talk about immersive, eh?

I already have a dual (2) 27" 4K@60Hz DisplayPort true UHD for my desktop work, with Xft bumped to 200dpi. Like MacOS X (Cocoa), Linux (Cario, via both GTK+ and Qt) has been vector graphics for 12+ years, unlike the massive staple of Windows (bitmapped WinForms) applications still out there.

But when I game, I like a large format picture, typically 42-48" on a corner TV stand. I have my 7-8" high Mini-ITX cubes/rectangles on one of the shelves of the stand, along with a PS3 and a 3rd device (usually a streaming unit, or another Console). Hence my inquiry if I can push 4K@60Hz with a GTX 980 Ti 6GiB satisfactorily, and if the low-cost RGBW options are feasible. From what I'm reading, people still don't like the refresh rates of those low-cost units, even though some claim 6.5ms G-G.

So it's best to just wait for new GPUs and more true 4K/4:4:4 TVs to come out.

Personally, I'm waiting on replacing my 780 for the new x80 GPU this summer, with a displayport 1.4 capable monitor. No reason to buy something at the ass-end of a tech year like we are at now.

DisplayPort 1.2 does 4K just fine. I drive two (2) of them with just dual-DisplayPort 1.2.

2016 is the great year of UHD TVs. 2017 is the great year of UHD gaming, for those of us willing to pay, of course.

If you want to save cash, get a tv like mine. My JS9000 is fantastic, and has been on sale for $1100 so often it's a bit ridiculous. That's Samsung's flagship 2015 tv, and since the KS9000's are coming, the price is dropping. The KS9000 offers very little, if any, benefit over the JS9000. If you want a cheap UHD stopgap with 120Hz, and amazing picture.. well I heartily recommend it.

DP1.2 IS fine, of course.. but DP1.4 is coming this year, and I might as well wait for it, since it's going to offer some serious long-term advantages, like 4k120, 8k60 (not that I'll be buying an 8k screen before 2020, of course.

WTF, I just used 2020 for the first time as a realistic, short term period of time. That's weird. Future, why you come so fast?

I played The Witcher 3 on my JS9000, and it looked pretty amazing. Framerate wasn't terribly great, since I'm on a launch GTX 780.

TL:DR, checkout LG or Samsung's 2015 models, OLED for LG, SUHD for Samsung. May is a great time to get 2015 tv's.


Ah *Edit* just saw the shelving comment. Oh well, I think my recommendations stand. But I agree, wait for 2017. Remember though, TV's are Q1-Q2 for the good ones, and hardware is Q2-Q3. It's not always as such, but it's *usually* that way. Something to always keep in mind for planning upgrades.

[thebs]

2016 is the great year of UHD TVs. 2017 is the great year of UHD gaming, for those of us willing to pay, of course.
If you want to save cash, get a tv like mine. My JS9000 is fantastic, and has been on sale for $1100 so often it's a bit ridiculous. That's Samsung's flagship 2015 tv, and since the KS9000's are coming, the price is dropping. The KS9000 offers very little, if any, benefit over the JS9000. If you want a cheap UHD stopgap with 120Hz, and amazing picture.. well I heartily recommend it.

You say 120Hz, but is that the actual signal over the wire?

HDMI 2.0 is capable of both 4K@60Hz, and 1080p@120Hz. Unfortunately most ODMs don't do the latter, only the former, so 120Hz doesn't mean much without it. I'm trying to confirm the JS9000 does. I read the JS9500 does not.

DP1.2 IS fine, of course.. but DP1.4 is coming this year, and I might as well wait for it, since it's going to offer some serious long-term advantages, like 4k120, 8k60 (not that I'll be buying an 8k screen before 2020, of course.

But will the TV manufacturers actually support DP? That's been the problem. The consumer TV industry and the MPAA seem to be in cohorts over preferring HDMI over DP, even though DP can offer HDCP.

Beyond that, we're also talking video cards. nVidia and, even worse, Intel have been notorious for being well behind AMD on adoption of newer interfaces. That was just stupid. Too many ODMs trying to clear out old stock. I really get tired of Intel crippling progress, and we're seeing it yet again with the ultra-crap that is USB-C, when Apple actually designed Thunderbolt correct.

I.e., complete replay of FireWire (IEEE spec'd, including the cables/VRs not _blowing_ electronics), and USB utterly designed like a Chinese adapter you find at Family Dollar (forged UL Listing and all). Don't get me started.

DisplayPort is an EE's dream, and it took forever for both to get eDP notebooks. This should have happened 6+ years ago, but is only coming true in the last 18+ months, and still not on TVs. Beyond stupid.

WTF, I just used 2020 for the first time as a realistic, short term period of time. That's weird. Future, why you come so fast?
I played The Witcher 3 on my JS9000, and it looked pretty amazing. Framerate wasn't terribly great, since I'm on a launch GTX 780.
TL:DR, checkout LG or Samsung's 2015 models, OLED for LG, SUHD for Samsung. May is a great time to get 2015 tv's.

I basically regulated myself to considering either ...
- a 4K RGBW with its limitations, or
- getting a true 1080p@120Hz capable 4K@60Hz using HDMI 2.0

They are very few choices out there for the latter, so many for the former. I have absolutely no idea why the TV OEMs aren't supporting 1080p@120Hz. But then again, not many OEMs are ODMs, although you'd figure Samsung (being its own ODM) was better than most.

But more and more I'm reading how even the claimed 4-8ms G-to-G refresh rates don't equate to an end-to-end 16ms true response time required for 60Hz (much less 120Hz at 1080p), so I'm most likely going to wait any way as the in-TV logic is still pretty crappy. If they would have just gone DP from the get-go, a lot of this would have been removed. But they didn't, even though it's cheaper for them too. I guess they just want to use those old components, and most home consumers -- who buy >>90% of the units here in the US -- just don't know any better.

The life of an EE who understand how this works at the analog level (yes, it still very much analog down there).

Ah *Edit* just saw the shelving comment. Oh well, I think my recommendations stand. But I agree, wait for 2017. Remember though, TV's are Q1-Q2 for the good ones, and hardware is Q2-Q3. It's not always as such, but it's *usually* that way. Something to always keep in mind for planning upgrades.

I've yet to spend more than $400 on either monitor or TV in this decade. My Samsung 28" 4K@60Hz DP1.2 LCDs were $399 on a Black Friday special, and my LG 42" 3Dtv is pretty good for gaming, refresh-rate wise.

I just don't want to drop >>$1,000 to have limitations, or have to load alternative firmware.

Thanx for the input. It helps me to talk this out, and then have people confirming. I guess I was hoping for too much.

[TorTorden]

I don't know much but I just think the RGBW pixel structure as rather odd.
Dedicated pixel segment for white would in my mind only increase screen door (unless everything is smaller) and increase white light output.
Now white light or light output is not the major concern from an image quality standpoint.
In fact most lcd's has far too much of it.

Anyhoo I'm for the time being sticking to my plasma.

And yes I too have no love for USB and nothing less than loathing for HDMI.

[thebs]

I don't know much but I just think the RGBW pixel structure as rather odd.
Dedicated pixel segment for white would in my mind only increase screen door (unless everything is smaller) and increase white light output.
Now white light or light output is not the major concern from an image quality standpoint.
In fact most lcd's has far too much of it.

4K RGBW also takes away from resolution if you upscale 1080p to it. For that reason, I decided against it in the end.

And for the other reasons, including so few ODMs actually supporting 1080p@120Hz (possibly because they don't have the 8.5ms end-to-end response time required) into their HDMI 2.0 logic on 4K@60Hz units, even though they claim 120Hz, I'm going to hold off as well.

I.e., if I'm going to drop nearly or beyond 4 figures, I want 1080p@120Hz (my 980 Ti easily does 114-184Hz in Horizons 2.x), in addition to 4K@60Hz, using HDMI 2.0. Just virtually impossible to find many TVs like that ... yet, at least not without hacking or seriously way into 4-figures. So it's better wait as it becomes standard.

Anyhoo I'm for the time being sticking to my plasma.

I never went plasma because of the sheer heat and power required. The colors are amazing, although they do lose fidelity over time. OLED is finally reaching large panel sizes, and price is now down to the cost of LED backlight LCD. 2017 will be interesting indeed.

And yes I too have no love for USB and nothing less than loathing for HDMI.

I was involved with some of the original block drivers development for USB 1.1, when USB was never designed to be used for block devices (only character). More off-topic ...

► Show Spoiler

That's what IEEE 1394 FireWire was for, but because Intel left it out of their southbridge for costs, just like they took forever to support DP at all, much more DP 1.2 and 4K in chipsets (even if your discrete GPU was capable in a notebook), etc...

HINT: FireWire was designed for 45W and up to 30V from the get-go, including an additional rail (6-wire) option, which would have solved all issues we have today with charging. Again, designed by EEs, standardized via the IEEE.

It's funny how USB issues, namely Intel wanting to be as cheap as possible and causing all sorts of blown components, are now returning with USB-C's power issues that should never, ever happen via the cable or end-device. If there is one thing I've always loved about Apple, when they design an interface, they get actually EEs involved, and certify it to ensure consumers weren't blowing devices. So when the recent USB-C cables issue happened, and started blowing up controllers, it was just a repeat of the original USB 1.x spec.

I.e., there's a reason why OHCI (USB 1.x) controllers were in PCs some 3+ years before devices showed up in the superstores, and there were lots of blown boards in those early years ... other than Apple stuff (after Jobs just gave into USB).