[HOW TO] Join the Order of Mobius forum-group

[Walter]

I think you're busy painting yourselves into a corner.

Two of the key words in the overall definition of OoM are 'cooperative' and 'democracy'. Vetting prospective supporters of the Order who have already subscribed to a way of life in ED does not, to my mind, sit well with these attributes.

While I understand the need for secrecy (this is the reason I appear on very few Friends lists: while we all play in the same way, we don't all subscribe to the same ideals), this sort of exclusivity goes one step further.

Before you address this conundrum, you are going to have to face up to the dilemma that the formation of OoM has created: it is constitutionally of Mobius Group but not part of it; the Disclaimer quoted by Loriath makes this clear. If the OoM is going to select its supporters, perhaps it should be a completely separate entity (but maintain strong links) and be removed from this forum entirely and become a parallel organisation.

[LionOfNarnia]

It was NOT my decision to make the Order of Mobius parts of this forum something that had to be applied for in the first place. However I do think it's a good idea.

For clarity, what I have suggested is that in order to be accepted, a Commander would have to have been active on the general forum for more than a few days, and have made a few posts, and to post a screen shot showing that they have achieved 'Friendly' status with the Order in Azrael.

Is that so unreasonable to gain access to the strategic, tactical & diplomatic discussions of what we hope will become a power?

There are many, many commanders in the Mobius private group who are NOT, and will never want to be, supporters of the Order. Some may even be opposed to the OoM gaining any traction in the galaxy.

I ask all those who posted negative reactions to sit back & think about it.

[Loriath]

Ok, can I just say that this isn't 'Policy' at this time, what is basically just a forum feature has been turned into a political debate.

Before anyone makes any rash decisions, there are no 'back room secrets' going on, neither is there a secret committee deciding who can and can't join the OoM.

For the record - my view is that the OoM should be as open as the Mobius PVE group, and when and only when there is some indication of people actively joining the forum to undermine the group should we consider some form of security.

Can I repeat - there is currently no policy of secrecy

Really?

From the first post:

4) Make sure 'Join Selected' appears in the drop-down box at the bottom of the page.

5) Click 'Submit'.

*********************************************
We're having a chin-wag, behind the scenes, about whether acceptance will be granted 'on a nod' or whether a certain amount of 'bottom' might be required.

If you're a new - or very recent - member of the forums, your application might stay 'under consideration' until we've finished talking about it.

So Someone else decides whether I am allowed to join?

Goes against everything you just said.

Lets look at what you just said:

Before anyone makes any rash decisions, there are no 'back room secrets' going on, neither is there a secret committee deciding who can and can't join the OoM.

Yet the first post says exactly the opposite. So which is it?

Is the group going to operate INCLUSIVELY or not?

Mobius PVE has an OPEN policy, and there is nothing stopping people from coming into group and breaking the rules. It has happened and it has been dealt with WITHOUT changing the group to an invite only group.

If the Order of Mobius is going to be affiliated with the GOOD name of this group, you cannot start out by saying "Maybe if we want you we will let you in" and kill ALL credibility of both groups.

There is NO reason at this point in time to assume that covert operatives are going to invade the forums and steal all the secrets. Even if they did, we have already dealt with stuff like this in the past and continued the INCLUSIVENESS of the group.

Again, Is the Order going to be INCLUSIVE?

Everything is pointing to no.

[Loriath]

I think you're busy painting yourselves into a corner.

Two of the key words in the overall definition of OoM are 'cooperative' and 'democracy'. Vetting prospective supporters of the Order who have already subscribed to a way of life in ED does not, to my mind, sit well with these attributes.

While I understand the need for secrecy (this is the reason I appear on very few Friends lists: while we all play in the same way, we don't all subscribe to the same ideals), this sort of exclusivity goes one step further.

Before you address this conundrum, you are going to have to face up to the dilemma that the formation of OoM has created: it is constitutionally of Mobius Group but not part of it; the Disclaimer quoted by Loriath makes this clear. If the OoM is going to select its supporters, perhaps it should be a completely separate entity (but maintain strong links) and be removed from this forum entirely and become a parallel organisation.

Thank you Walter. I agree completely.

[Loriath]

For clarity, what I have suggested is that in order to be accepted, a Commander would have to have been active on the general forum for more than a few days, and have made a few posts, and to post a screen shot showing that they have achieved 'Friendly' status with the Order in Azrael.

Is that so unreasonable to gain access to the strategic, tactical & diplomatic discussions of what we hope will become a power?

So anyone that wants to help us, they are FORCED to Post here and PROVE that they are loyal? Do you have any idea how many people in the Mobius group have NEVER registered for an account here? It's a huge number. And there is nothing to say that they are not reading without an account, and if you lock it off behind a closed door, they are not going to feel welcome at all.

If this is all just to become a Political Power Play group, then again, I am out. If it was going to be Open and Inclusive of anyone taken at their word that they wanted to help I would definitely help out when I can. And I am sure I am not alone. But when you start HIDING it so that you need to know the secret handshake (Good Standing Posts and Evidence that you are Friendly) then it is NOT inclusive.

Walter had it right. Split the OoM group to a separate site and leave the Mobius PVE site out of it.

[Wolf]

Ok, this got out of hand quickly!

Just for clarification: The only reason for this forum group was to have a subforum exclusiv to members of the forum group of the faction.
Not all PvE members are intertested in the in-game factions, so we thought it is a good idea to give it it's own separate section here.

The membership itself was not to be a privilege or something for which you have to "prove your worth". As Xebeth noted, it was just something to keep the forum list from cluttering for people who have absolutely no interest in the in-game faction.

So in my eyes, clicking the join button is just like an "opt in" or "I want to be part of the in-game faction" and it should be accepted by default.

Like this we also have an estimate of the percenatge of members activly supporting the in-game faction, and the additional forum for internal faction talk is a bonus, and the fact it is forum group members only prevents it from being picked up by search robots, that's all.

The group was meant as a means to keep track of things things, not to split up anything.

I will check if we can make membership auto-approve.

[Loriath]

Ok, this got out of hand quickly!

Just for clarification: The only reason for this forum group was to have a subforum exclusiv to members of the forum group of the faction.
Not all PvE members are intertested in the in-game factions, so we thought it is a good idea to give it it's own separate section here.

Reasonable.

The membership itself was not to be a privilege or something for which you have to "prove your worth". As Xebeth noted, it was just something to keep the forum list from cluttering for people who have absolutely no interest in the in-game faction.

So in my eyes, clicking the join button is just like an "opt in" or "I want to be part of the in-game faction" and it should be accepted by default.

Again Reasonable, however, the first post made it clear that this was a Private Group now, and that THEY would decide who gets in. Even Right now it has been updated to say:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It was NOT my decision to make the Order of Mobius parts of this forum something that had to be applied for in the first place. However I do think it's a good idea.

For clarity, what I have suggested is that in order to be accepted, a Commander would have to have been active on the general forum for more than a few days, and have made a few posts, and to post a screen shot showing that they have achieved 'Friendly' status with the Order in Azrael.

Again, NOT reasonable. I have to PROVE my worth?

Again, completely AGAINST what Xebeth said, and what you have just said Wolf. So Which is it? Can Joe Newb join this group today, or does he have to PROVE that he is worthy?

Like this we also have an estimate of the percenatge of members activly supporting the in-game faction, and the additional forum for internal faction talk is a bonus, and the fact it is forum group members only prevents it from being picked up by search robots, that's all.

The group was meant as a means to keep track of things things, not to split up anything.

I will check if we can make membership auto-approve.

I understand that there are sections that some people don't want to see when they visit the site. Don't have an issue with that.

But the people who are running the OoM, whomever they may be, really need to get together and decide what the rules are before they state differing answers to the same question.

And tell us IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. IS THE ORDER OF MOBIUS PLAYER FACTION INCLUSIVE OR NOT?


NONE of you have answered that question, which makes this all feel like talking to a politician who avoids the questions.

[Wolf]

And tell us IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. IS THE ORDER OF MOBIUS PLAYER FACTION INCLUSIVE OR NOT?

Not so loud, the little ones are sleeping.

Gotta ask what you mean: Do you mean everybody can support if they want? Then yes, of course.
You don't even have to be a member of the PvE group to play for th Order.

On the other hand, you don't have to support it, even if you are a member of the PvE group.
So I need some help in understanding what inclusive means in this context.

Btw. I already changed the group, to "just join" as I see the problems an approval process brings with it now.
So now it is more like a "subscribe to the faction forum".
The special moderators are there to concentrate just on the Order Forums, as we are getting quite a busy forum lately.

I will change the OP to clarify this.

Thanks
Wolf

[Walter]

You don't even have to be a member of the PvE group to play for th Order.

Isn't this another good reason to separate the two entities?

[uvelius]

That is what I am afraid of. I have promoted Mobius since I joined and saw the In Player faction as being something that would show how much fun an Inclusive group could be. [...] We (The Mobius PVE Group) have been about choice, being inclusive. This is all about being exclusive. If OoM is going to become another group that hides in the dark, plotting behind the scenes instead of including people, then I want no part.

I think this should really be considered. I do see the group more like an INARA wing, so more in the sense of Mobius seeing it as a separate instance. And there, a "secret" part can come in handy, as said if considering coordinated actions with or against other player groups. I generally like group structures for tactical and strategical reasons, where and as far as they apply.
For example, I find the thought appealing to merge in one small INARA wing as a Squadron in a bigger Wing that shares the same basic values (up to a point, of course), since we then gain more room for communal wing actions => more cooperation + more fun.

BUT since both groups -- the In-Game Group and this "Wing"-style group this discussion is about -- share the same name, even though the Order clearly says "Order", there is a certain danger that one influences the other, in the worst way letting the Game Group becoming more exclusive. Or parting players into seem-to-be "real" and "lesser" members, the first being members of the OoM, the latter being member of the In-Game Group.
So this should be taken seriously, and remembered while the two groups evolve.

Back to lunch!