Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Eveything that is canon in the Elite: Dangerous universe.
User avatar
UnmarkedBoxcar
Master
Master
Posts: 1098
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 5:18 pm
CMDR: UnmarkedBoxcar
CMDR_Platform: PC-MAC
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby UnmarkedBoxcar » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:40 pm

Straylight0 wrote:Just realised I've been getting something else worng: been having people swig from bottles in zero-g, and don't think that would work! Everyone probably carries a fancy straw device with them


I think a bag might be more practical, or some sort of pouch or "wineskin". Kinda like the astronauts on the ISS use for drinking water. Bags/pouches can be squeezed, whereas I think with a bottle in Zero-g you'd probably suck a lot of air :D
Image

Dudley
Master
Master
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:25 pm
CMDR: Dudley_Dawg
CMDR_Platform: None Specified
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby Dudley » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:32 am

UnmarkedBoxcar wrote:
Straylight0 wrote:Just realised I've been getting something else worng: been having people swig from bottles in zero-g, and don't think that would work! Everyone probably carries a fancy straw device with them


I think a bag might be more practical, or some sort of pouch or "wineskin". Kinda like the astronauts on the ISS use for drinking water. Bags/pouches can be squeezed, whereas I think with a bottle in Zero-g you'd probably suck a lot of air :D


Mmmmm, wineskin, :D looks like the beerskin might get put on hold tonight...thanks for the inspiration guys... :)
Dudley.
As a tribute to Tor, my CMDR has small feet too! o7 Dawg

Straylight0
Novice
Novice
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 3:57 pm
CMDR: Straylight0
CMDR_Platform: None Specified
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby Straylight0 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:03 am

Yup, a flexible packet would work best but I've already been talking about bottles in the novel. I'll try and come up with some suitable high-tech gizmo.

In the meantime, I have a coriolis force question, especially if the smart Mr Gorf is still about! The wikipedia thing talks about spheres and a rotating disc, but I'm struggling with the inside of a rotating cylinder. If you walk towards one end of the cylinder, then turn around and walk towards the other, would the coriolis "force" then change between right and left? If you walked directly around the circumference of the cylinder, would it then seem to be speeding you up and slowing you down instead of turning you?

Gorf
Master
Master
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:44 pm
CMDR: Hardy
CMDR_Platform: None Specified
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby Gorf » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:33 am

Straylight0 wrote:Yup, a flexible packet would work best but I've already been talking about bottles in the novel. I'll try and come up with some suitable high-tech gizmo.

I think you may be worrying about it too much. In 1276 years, there will be more people drinking out of bags than drinking out of rigid glass recetacles. Language will have evolved so that "bottle" is basically any container for holding liquid.

Straylight0 wrote:In the meantime, I have a coriolis force question, especially if the smart Mr Gorf is still about!

I think I might have overstated my knowledge. I first heard about the coriolis effect in a film about snipers. For extremely long shots they have to adjust their aim not just for wind, air density and gravity; they must also factor in that in the two or three seconds it takes for the bullet to get to the target, the Earth will have moved. My sum knowledge of the matter is from that and reading the wiki I linked to above.

Straylight0 wrote:The wikipedia thing talks about spheres and a rotating disc, but I'm struggling with the inside of a rotating cylinder. If you walk towards one end of the cylinder, then turn around and walk towards the other, would the coriolis "force" then change between right and left? If you walked directly around the circumference of the cylinder, would it then seem to be speeding you up and slowing you down instead of turning you?

There's no such thing as a coriolis force. It's an apparent vector based on two viewpoints that are moving on a different trajectory relative to each other - which is why the sniper has to adjust his aim: His movement vector (relative to the centre of the planet) is completely different to his target's. If it's far enough away - it's a moving target (relative to his location) even if it's stationary.
Image

Straylight0
Novice
Novice
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 3:57 pm
CMDR: Straylight0
CMDR_Platform: None Specified
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby Straylight0 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:27 pm

Hence the inverted commas around "force." When I come to write this in a novel, I shall have to describe what it feels like...

Gorf
Master
Master
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:44 pm
CMDR: Hardy
CMDR_Platform: None Specified
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby Gorf » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:01 pm

A right - it's nothing to do with the coriolis effect then. You're trying to describe centrifugal force, which doesn't exist.

Centrifugal force is the mistaken feeling of gravity (or other force) caused by centripetal force. When you're standing on the station dock, you're constantly accelerating* away from the tangential path that you would take if the station were to spontanously disappear. centripetal force is the change in direction of the floor under your feet, pushing you back to a circular path. As you already have a motion vector that's parallel to the dock's plane at any given instant, you don't feel that part of your motion, you only feel the change in direction.

As regards a difference in sensation based on which way you are walking along the length of the cylinder, I don't know for sure, but I don't think there will be any difference. If there was, this device would not be safe
Image
because there would be a different load on one chain compared to the other.
Image

Straylight0
Novice
Novice
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 3:57 pm
CMDR: Straylight0
CMDR_Platform: None Specified
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby Straylight0 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:13 pm

[Do like the idea of "bottle" meaning squeezies by the way]

[puts hands to head and concentrates]
You are in a cylindrical space station
You are facing the end that is rotating clockwise with reference to an outside observer (always comforts me that rotation is absolute)
You start walking towards it, and it feels as if you are being pulled to the right, because while your foot is in the air, the station has rotated so that it's the bit of ground to the right that is now underneath it

You turn around and walk to the anti-clockwise end... now it feels as if you are being pushed left, because it is rotating the other way

You turn at right angles to both ends, and you try walking the way the space station is rotating... but then you have to stop, because smoke is coming out of your ears and you have used up your day's allocation of brain power.

I THINK that sounds about right for the walking towards the ends?

User avatar
UnmarkedBoxcar
Master
Master
Posts: 1098
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 5:18 pm
CMDR: UnmarkedBoxcar
CMDR_Platform: PC-MAC
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby UnmarkedBoxcar » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:49 pm

Some food for thought:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/h ... ty.679719/

Read the initial question, and then scroll down to a reply from "Doc Al" to get to the first mostly pertinent answer (if you ask me)

Staying along this train of thought would explain the many warnings we see on the flight decks in Elite that say "Caution: Low Gravity" and would also lead me to believe that the mere act of jumping with any considerable force may be ill advised in some parts of a starport.
Image

User avatar
UnmarkedBoxcar
Master
Master
Posts: 1098
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 5:18 pm
CMDR: UnmarkedBoxcar
CMDR_Platform: PC-MAC
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby UnmarkedBoxcar » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:52 pm

Also, Straylight, in response to your last post. If technically your body had matched speed with the surface you were walking on, would it really matter if you turned around and went the other direction? Would it be any different than turning around in an airplane (If that plane were in a turbulence-free environment...physically impossible) or on a cruise ship, or glancing into the back seat in a car? Based on how I understand it. Once you "match speeds" with the surface you're spinning with (the earth, or a star port) you wouldn't feel any noticeable difference based on your orientation, as long as the object you were on was massive enough, and, in the case of a starport, you could avoid windows and the vertigo they may bring.

Hmmmm.
Image

User avatar
UnmarkedBoxcar
Master
Master
Posts: 1098
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 5:18 pm
CMDR: UnmarkedBoxcar
CMDR_Platform: PC-MAC
Contact:

Re: Seeking Clarification: Zero-G environments?

Postby UnmarkedBoxcar » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:55 pm

I like this part particularly:

"stevendaryl You don't need anything attracting the water to the bucket. What you do need is a way to get the water in the bucket spinning. So, for example, if you put a lid on the bucket, then spin it, the water will be forced to the bottom of the bucket. At that point, you can take the lid off, and the water will stay in the bottom as long as you keep spinning the bucket.

If you take a bucket of water into absolute zero gravity than the first thing the water would do is form a sphere, what you are saying is if you compress the water into the bucket then the water under pressure will stick to its side. I agree you have a volume of liquid under pressure forced inside the container, however that doesn't translate to a human in air standing on the wall of the cylinder. There is no force or pressure pushing back human against the cylinder wall.

You're certainly right that if there is nothing to keep the water in the bucket initially, then it will just float away. So, yes, if you have giant cylindrical space station that is spinning, then it is possible to float forever at the center of the cylinder. You won't be pushed to the walls of the cylinder. However, if you do move in the direction of one of the walls, you will eventually hit the wall. At that point, friction will soon get you moving at the same speed as the walls. When you are moving at the same speed as the walls, you will "feel" an apparent gravitational force pushing you against the wall."

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/h ... ty.679719/

Much like the gravity on earth. I guess, hypothetically you could jump with enough force to drastically change your velocity/trajectory (from the wall/floor you are now spinning with, quite quickly) but that would probably be the equivalent of jumping yourself into orbit, depending on how quickly the cylinder/starport was spinning.
Image


Return to “Official Lore Talk”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

i