Beta Update 4

[Cmdr Kharma]

VERY......VERY.....Nasty.......

[Roger Wilco Jr]

I'd assume that non-horizons players won't have to deal with modified ships. Either that, or they will add engineers to some custom stations or outposts. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair at all. And I'd love to seem some custom stations & outposts.

[Xebeth]

I'd assume that non-horizons players won't have to deal with modified ships. Either that, or they will add engineers to some custom stations or outposts. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair at all. And I'd love to seem some custom stations & outposts.

I think they will, only thing not having Horizons means is not landing on planets, you can still instance with a non-Horizons player so they are going to be getting the same NPCs as everyone else, mods and all.

I think either SS or MB said some Engineers might come to non-Horizon player at maybe some point down the road, but at the moment it's a Horizons only addition.

In PVE it's all going to comedown to how rare NPCs with mods are (the beta is probably no indication as they'll be stress testing the mods). In PVP, well put it this way, expect to see an influx of non-Horizon players...

[Walter]

I'd assume that non-horizons players won't have to deal with modified ships. Either that, or they will add engineers to some custom stations or outposts. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair at all. And I'd love to seem some custom stations & outposts.

They do - at least in the beta, but I expect Xebeth is correct. I've only got access to the 1.6 version and I'm getting all the warnings about upgraded ships - and feeling the effects.

I can also collect materials from destroyed ships and I'm assuming that recovered materials can be sold in the Commodities Markets - I can see that the list of commodities has been extended, but haven't checked details.
Edit: Someone has started a thread on this topic on the 2.1 Discussions page: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=250967

[Xebeth]

<snip>
Edit: Someone has started a thread on this topic on the 2.1 Discussions page: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=250967

So the basic premise of that thread is that the 2.1 players will have an advantage over 1.6 players and the OP didn't think it was fair.

In simple terms this is just going to be how it goes, when we hit 3.0 it'll be even further apart and so on, that's how expansions work, Elite doesn't have levels so we get enhancements instead, with each expansion comes more enhancements and the gap grows.

The only way to balance it would be to start creating separate galaxies, and they would have to be completely separate otherwise we'd have the same arguments as we get with private/solo and the BGS, and that means more servers, and that costs money, and that's less money spent on development.

Also, from a business perspective why wouldn't FD want to 'encourage' people to get the expansions, it's their main revenue stream after all.

[Roger Wilco Jr]

Yeah, but ...

This approach seems kind of half assed. They think they got complaints when they dropped the offline option, I can just imagine what they will hear when the 1.6 players are suddenly overwhelmed by more powerful NPCs and especially maxed out PVPers. How hard would it be to just add engineers to some existing stations! And better yet, add some custom/hidden stations in previously uninhabited systems. But I think they have a bunch of masochists working there that like getting kicked in the balls, so they probably won't.

[Walter]

To defend the OP on that thread, he didn't use the word 'fair' - that was an extrapolation by other contributors - but questioned whether it was a workable option to have a galaxy where there are two classes of paying customer. This is a situation that FD has created and perhaps they should have come out at the launch of Horizons and told players directly there was no choice but to upgrade instead of coming at it in such an oblique manner.

There's a very good reason why there are no players running ED in XP.

[Gorf]

So the basic premise of that thread is that the 2.1 players will have an advantage over 1.6 players and the OP didn't think it was fair.

Well from my perspective it's not about fairness it's about balance. Frontier already have a problem with new players in sideys being hunted by idiots in overpowered ships just because that's how they get their stiffies. It's less of a problem in Mobius, but you'll still (potentially) have an NPC making the game unplayable for new starters.

In Team Fortress 2, there are several overpowered weapons, armour, classes etc but they are usually balanced by a major disadvantage. Kill in one hit, but it makes you slower, inflict double damage but it reduces your health and so on. E:D already has a good degree of balancing with the ships, and they are quick to nerf them if they realise they've made a mistake. It doesn't seem to be the case with the engineer update, though.

[Xebeth]

So the basic premise of that thread is that the 2.1 players will have an advantage over 1.6 players and the OP didn't think it was fair.

Well from my perspective it's not about fairness it's about balance. Frontier already have a problem with new players in sideys being hunted by idiots in overpowered ships just because that's how they get their stiffies. It's less of a problem in Mobius, but you'll still (potentially) have an NPC making the game unplayable for new starters.

In Team Fortress 2, there are several overpowered weapons, armour, classes etc but they are usually balanced by a major disadvantage. Kill in one hit, but it makes you slower, inflict double damage but it reduces your health and so on. E:D already has a good degree of balancing with the ships, and they are quick to nerf them if they realise they've made a mistake. It doesn't seem to be the case with the engineer update, though.

It's going to come down to how common modified NPCs are, and at what rank they have those mods. If we only see them occasionally and only on the higher ranks, then there is no issue for starting players (unless they choose it).

If loads of NPCs at all ranks have them, then yes it needs balancing out, but that's not a 1.6 vs. 2.1 thing, any starter regardless of which one they are playing are going to struggle in this scenario.

[Roger Wilco Jr]

This 2.1 vs 1.6 thing is interesting. I had no idea they were still selling 1.5 as an option. How stupid is that! Are they going to eventually have 3, 4, or 5 tiers, and so on? I can't believe they don't force new players to buy the latest version. I guess they have a problem with the single galaxy approach, so if a player doesn't want to upgrade, but still wants to play, they will need to play in the same galaxy as everybody else. So if in the long run, if various upgrades make the game ultimately unplayable, then FD will need to do something about it (to be fair, in my words). I visited the kickstarter page and read and watched videos and I didn't hear DB promise anyone was going to get all these expansions/upgrades for free, but the game does need to remain playable (w/o an offline mode). Someone in that other thread suggested instancing 1.6 players with other 1.6 players and 1.6 level NPCs, and etc., and I think that makes some sense. If you want to fly for cheap, you need to make some sacrifices. If you want the latest and greatest and the full open experience, then you need to pay for it. At least there are no monthly subscriptions.

Btw, one of those dev diary vids showed a bunch of Vipers flying circles around Anacondas. It was nothing like the game is now. An Anaconda could only target small ships with turreted weapons (kind of like capital ships now). Then I could imagine the Anaconda having large fixed or limited gimbal type weapons that could only be used against other large ships or fixed installations. Although the Vipers looked a little too fast, it seemed much more realistic than having an Anaconda (Vette, Cutter) being able to maneuver against smaller ships. I wonder what made them change that. And there was sure a lot of game depth that was talked about that we have yet to see. One thing is for sure, development on this game is taking too long.